- Times are in Pacific Daylight Time (UTC-7).
- Semi-formatted minutes are here
[13:02] bastique: okay
[13:02] bastique: Turn your books to page http://wikimania2008.wikimedia.org/wiki/Post-mortem
[13:02] jayansonvv: done
[13:02] bastique: I was hoping we'd have a summary by Samuel
[13:03] SueGardner: Is SJ here?
[13:03] SueGardner: He's on the list to come, so maybe he will show up.
[13:03] bastique: Angela Austin brassratgirl_ delphine_away MichaelSnow here?
[13:03] bastique: SueGardner: He's not here yet
[13:03] SueGardner: K thanks.
[13:04] SueGardner: Cary are you chairing again?
[13:04] jayansonvv: just housekeepingy stuff, i will probably book by 1:30
[13:04] bastique: I can if we like
[13:04] SueGardner: Me too: I have a meeting then.
[13:04] SueGardner: Hello Jay
[13:04] jayansonvv: hi hi hi
[13:04] SueGardner: Ooops sorry, my apologies: I have a meeting in 90 minutes.
[13:04] Austin: I'm semi-here, but busy at work, so not likely to be active.
[13:04] bastique: Then we should probably start with "PR roundup feedback, Foundation"
[13:04] brassratgirl_: am sort of here as well
[13:04] brassratgirl_: hey Jay
[13:05] jayansonvv: that sounds lovely
[13:05] jayansonvv: hey hey
[13:05] jayansonvv: should i chime in there?
[13:05] bastique: I think so
[13:05] jayansonvv: or does someone want to take a swipe?
[13:05] SueGardner: I dunno: are we going to do substance in this meeting, or process?
[13:05] jayansonvv: good question
[13:06] bastique: Well, this meeting is to be what was left over from previous one, I thought
[13:06] bastique: but process is good
[13:06] jayansonvv: On the topic of PR I only have a few points to express, some of which were well-discussed in the emails
[13:06] SueGardner: Jay, you're going to send Cary notes re the substance later, to be inputed into the staff feedback to the postmortem.
[13:06] jayansonvv: Exactly
[13:06] SueGardner: But if you want to give a quick upshot, that might be good.,
[13:07] jayansonvv: sure - in general I felt the event served a great localized goal of sparking dialog among local, perhaps low to no awareness of wiki projects
[13:07] jayansonvv: If that's one of the primary goals, I'd say that was successful. granted my arabic is pretty week. there is good ground work for devleopment of a local chapter
[13:08] jayansonvv: the international coverage was fairly limited, mostly to US english. It was hard to make many of those situations work - doing quick phone interviews with the BBC is tough on a 5 second turn around
[13:09] jayansonvv: But it raised the question for me of the opportunity to leverage wikimania for major announcements and big international news - if you have the attention fo the outlets
[13:09] jayansonvv: i stop now
[13:09] bastique: I wish some of our 2009 organizers were here
[13:09] SueGardner: I have a question.
[13:09] jayansonvv: i had some great conversations with them
[13:09] jayansonvv: shoot
[13:09] MichaelSnow: We've had the NYT's attention the past two years, and people often follow their lead, so it would get out if we wanted to use it
[13:09] SueGardner: I am not sure how great the potential is for international media.
[13:10] jayansonvv: mm hmm, insomuch as they have a hard hard time getting there, i agree
[13:10] brassratgirl_: MichaelSnow: it helps that Noam likes to go drinking with us
[13:10] jayansonvv: and it's a tough sell to editors - which is why we got just two really
[13:10] MichaelSnow: but I don't know if Wikimania is the best venue for us to do announcements
[13:10] SueGardner: There is clearly potential for local media: it's very exciting for local media to have Jimmy present, and the organization/community in general.
[13:10] jayansonvv: yes
[13:10] jayansonvv: local national media
[13:10] SueGardner: But we can get international attention any time we want it.
[13:10] SueGardner: And most international news organizations are not going to send a reporter to Wikimania (clearly).
[13:10] JamesF: Unless it's local, as in Boston.
[13:11] SueGardner: so to me, I would guess that the extra potential for international press offered by wikimania, is limited.
[13:11] kwadhwa joined the chat room.
[13:11] SueGardner: Jay?
[13:11] jayansonvv: i agree, unless it was ratchted up substantially - with several big deal outside speakers
[13:11] MichaelSnow: So something like the Egyptian Arabic Wikipedia is the right idea? (but the wrong idea too)
[13:11] brassratgirl_: SueGardner: Frankfurt had more international coverage than any of the others, iirc
[13:11] SueGardner: Interesting re Frankfurt.
[13:11] MichaelSnow: Frankfurt was first of its kind
[13:11] kwadhwa was granted voice by ChanServ.
[13:11] brassratgirl_: there were people from all over. I got interviewed by someone from Australia ,etc.
[13:11] jayansonvv: if it grew and extended and became a much larger show, there might potential - but it wouldn't be what -we- have to say
[13:12] SueGardner: brassratgirl: did Australia send a reporter to Egypt?
[13:12] Gizmo_II joined the chat room.
[13:12] brassratgirl_: but yes, it was the first of it's kind, and Frankfurt is a) easier to get to and b) more likely to have international reporters there already
[13:12] brassratgirl_: Sue: dunno
[13:12] jayansonvv: if it was every two years, it might help
[13:12] SueGardner: Interesting.
[13:12] jayansonvv: we had 2 aussie reporters expres interest
[13:12] bastique: Gizmo_II is one of the argentinian team locals
[13:12] jayansonvv: but they couldn't get it. I think, honestly, if we had the schedule and the speakers known 2 months in advance it would help make it saleable to get more international reporters tehre
[13:12] SueGardner: Yes, to the extent that Wikimania is in a large city with lots of international media, it will get attention. But to the extent that it's in a location with less international media present, it won't.
[13:12] brassratgirl_: hiya Gizmo
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[13:13] jayansonvv: in future I'd like to pitch it more as a place to really understand the wiki culture - a one stop shop
[13:13] MichaelSnow: SueGardner: which argues for the NA/Europe focus
[13:13] jayansonvv: however, argentina will be a huge spanish media opporutnity
[13:13] kwadhwa: portuguese as well
[13:13] jayansonvv: and that's an audience of hundreds of millions of people right - all the major spanish media networks will tap in
[13:13] MichaelSnow: I'm hesitant to place too much focus on Wikimania as a media event, though, as opposed to a gathering of the international community
[13:14] SueGardner: MichaelSnow: yeah. Feels like there may be a natural tension between "desire for international media" and "desire to foster Wikimedia community where it doesn't exist"
[13:14] JamesF: Agreed.
[13:14] jayansonvv: yes - so it's not international, but it was huge. and Alexandria did and could have more substnatially tapped into arabic media
[13:14] SueGardner: Yes, agreed here too.
[13:14] brassratgirl_: Well, we've never gotten Arabic-language coverage at a Wikimania before as far as I know The regional coverage is useful as well.
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[13:14] brassratgirl_: I mean, even if there could have been more of it
[13:14] SueGardner: The regional coverage supports the 'local outreach' goal.
[13:14] jayansonvv: i think media attention should only be a positive response to a great conference, i wouldnt' want to change the focus to media at all
[13:15] SueGardner: Yep. So it feels to me like 'international media' is a tertiary goal at best.
[13:15] jayansonvv: i think focussing on the local language media, from a global perspective, is a great goal
[13:15] SueGardner: Agreed.
[13:15] jayansonvv: and not a difficult goal to achieve. it's such an obvious sell. and next year there will be much more time to focus on the spanish/portugese media. other int'l beyond that is a happy positive
[13:15] SueGardner: Yes, agreed
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[13:15] jayansonvv: we're well prepared for that with the brazil and argentina groups
[13:16] brassratgirl_: one thing that would be useful
[13:16] jayansonvv: but my most important point - wikimania should not bow to media, it should be a space/opportunit for them
[13:16] jayansonvv: yes yes
[13:16] brassratgirl_: is to do more work getting "man on the street" attendees ready to be interviewed beforehand
[13:16] brassratgirl_: to have a handful of people who are comfortable giving interviews, in whatever language
[13:16] jayansonvv: totally agree
[13:16] brassratgirl_: what happened in Alex has happened before
[13:16] brassratgirl_: where reporters are desperate to talk to anyone
[13:17] jayansonvv: and to that end I'd like to be on the ground a few more days earl with the team to prepare for that. we did some shoestring media training the day before in alex
[13:17] brassratgirl_: which can be a bit intrusive for the attendees. Which is one of the problems with inviting even *more* media.
[13:17] jayansonvv: and the more trained and ready bodies, the more storeis can get out here
[13:17] bastique: I had to turn down a couple interview requests because I was too busy
[13:17] jayansonvv: that's an interesting point. speakers I feel are kind of fair game to be approached by media - is that agreed?
[13:18] brassratgirl_: everybody wants the "so how long have you been working on wikipedia? why do you do it?" story, and it would be nice if they don't all try to talk to whoever the lead organizer is, etc.
[13:18] jayansonvv: but attendees I think should not be approached
[13:18] brassratgirl_: I don't know about that
[13:18] jayansonvv: that's do-able
[13:18] brassratgirl_: it's often nice for people to get interviewed. Just note it's one of the hazards of having lots of cameras around.
[13:18] jayansonvv: maybe next time we can flag certain attendees who are totally comfortable and -want- to talk to media
[13:19] MichaelSnow: Have we done some kind of sticker thing in the past, or is that some other conference I'm thinking about?
[13:19] jayansonvv: next time we can also set aside a media-free zone. i've seen that at other conferences. just a 'chill space' for attendees, no cameras
[13:19] MichaelSnow: Put a green sticker on nametags if they're okay being interviewed
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[13:19] JamesF left the chat room. (Nick collision from services.)
[13:19] jayansonvv: i've seen that michael - it can help. or a big green button
[13:20] brassratgirl_: the first two years we had no-photo buttons also
[13:20] jayansonvv: and most reporters appreciate that in y experience
[13:20] jayansonvv: yes, i saw some of those. i personally found those quite bizarre
[13:20] bastique: brassratgirl_: and we should specify that on people's apps
[13:20] bastique: jayansonvv: Not I
[13:20] jayansonvv: but i understand the situation
[13:20] brassratgirl_: bastique: wasn't it in the reg form again?
[13:20] bastique: Maybe
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[13:20] jayansonvv: it's a conference/convention - by its nature it is a public sort of event
[13:20] JamesF_: brassratgirl_> There was someone with that this year too.
[13:20] SueGardner: Aren't most people okay to be approached by a reporter? Can't they just say no if they want?
[13:20] JamesF_ is now known as JamesF.
[13:20] bastique: But I only saw one person wearing one
[13:21] bastique: HaeB
[13:21] MichaelSnow: jay: It's a friendlier setup to advertise that you give permission rather than refuse it, I agree
[13:21] jayansonvv: if they're informed they don't have to, I agree Sue. but I can imagine some folks might feel they have to? I dunno. that's also a bit of media awareness
[13:21] SueGardner: Okay
[13:21] brassratgirl_: anyway, details aside, I feel like how the media are handled contributes a lot to the feeling of the event; too much, or too much in the public space, and it can be a bit overwhelming; but all hustled away into the press conference doesn't work iwth conveying the feeling of the community.
[13:21] jayansonvv: those with the happy 'talk to me' buttons would get what they want, and those without would probably be less approahced
[13:21] SueGardner: Agreed, brassratgirl.
[13:21] brassratgirl_: sue: reporters are pushy
[13:21] SueGardner: Before we move off this
[13:21] brassratgirl_:
[13:21] JamesF: I think the idea is that they don't want their image taken ever, in any context. It's not exactly practical (crowd scenes, walk-pasts, etc.).
[13:22] SueGardner: Can I step back for a second, on the whole PR question?
[13:22] jayansonvv: i think next time we can set aside a comfortable no-press area (it won't spoil the mood) and take steps to control the experience
[13:22] bastique: SueGardner: go ahead
[13:22] jayansonvv: it's not practical - yes
[13:22] SueGardner: (Oh and yes JamesF; I had forgotten about people's privacy concerns. Fair enough.)
[13:22] jayansonvv: yes please
[13:22] SueGardner: K
[13:22] SueGardner: Bear with me for a second.
[13:22] SueGardner: It seems to me that one of the big-picture questions we've been addressing is 'the purpose of Wikimania.'
[13:22] jayansonvv: mm hmm
[13:23] SueGardner: And we've all agreed that the main purpose of Wikimania is core community interaction, and a secondary purpose is local outreach/public outreach.
[13:23] SueGardner: (I htink we have all agreed.)
[13:23] bastique: absolutely
[13:23] SueGardner: It seems to me that all the other potential goals: international media, making money, supporting fundraising activities, the Foundation developing partnerships in the local area, all of that: is tertiary at best. Sometimes it is incompatible with the main goals, but even where it's not incompatible, it should take a back seat to them.
[13:23] jayansonvv: i'm getting that vibe.
[13:23] SueGardner: Do we essentially agree on that?
[13:23] jayansonvv: i agree on that
[13:24] jayansonvv: of course i feel that wikimania is our one big annual event - our place to tell the story and be public. I'd like ot keep that spirit alive
[13:24] SueGardner: Yep.
[13:24] bastique: that's your job to feel that, Jay
[13:24] jayansonvv: but i totally understand that it only works best when we focus on ourselves. I just think it's important to be open and conducive to public
[13:24] MichaelSnow: I'd put a caveat that "core community" needs to be defined a little more broadly than we sometimes tend to do
[13:24] MichaelSnow: Otherwise I think I agree
[13:24] SueGardner: Yes, I agree Michael.
[13:24] jayansonvv: of course - but this is more abotu welcoming new bodies and new views and people, if you focus inward too much you might not get that
[13:25] SueGardner: Yes, ITA. "Core community" needs to be interpreted as Wikimedians.
[13:25] jayansonvv: i wouldn't want the broad 'story' to be this is wikimedia's club get together, i'd like it to be 'the world is invited to come and speak and dialog'
[13:25] SueGardner: [generally]
[13:25] jayansonvv: but if you're not a wikimedian and care about the cause, you also have to be sure to be inclusive to new folks
[13:25] jayansonvv: and that sort of includes media/storytellers
[13:25] brassratgirl_: JamesF, do you remember that some people came to WM in Frankfurt after seeing it on the news? Or am I imagining that?
[13:25] jayansonvv: and by defintion, the public at large
[13:26] SueGardner: But it's not _primarily_ a newbie event - an outreach event aimed at teaching people how to edit, or introducing the core principles, etc. It's primarily intended for people who are active in the projects. Yeah?
[13:26] jayansonvv: note that a number of people in Alex had no idea what wikimedia or WP was - they were there to learn
[13:26] barcex joined the chat room.
[13:26] SueGardner: There could be a newbie track, but it would not be the core purpose of the event.
[13:26] SueGardner: ?
[13:26] SueGardner: I think it's important that we nail this
[13:26] bastique: Carlos!
[13:26] brassratgirl_: SueGardner: there's been a bunch of discussion about the newbie question, actually
[13:26] barcex was granted voice by ChanServ.
[13:26] jayansonvv: i'd like some kind of 101 track, or just the messaging needs to be inclusive and welcoming and not too inside club
[13:26] brassratgirl_: and what to do about them
[13:26] brassratgirl_: but in general, no
[13:27] brassratgirl_: Jay: yes, I think many of us think a 101 track would be a good idea
[13:27] jayansonvv: i think so many this year were very new, and not english speakers first, and wanted to be brought in
[13:27] MichaelSnow: It's likely not possible to really keep newbies out
[13:27] jayansonvv: that's the other good point Michael
[13:27] kwadhwa: when I talked to some attendees both local and from other countries, they told me that it was hard to find sessions or understand things if they weren't already very active in the community
[13:27] SueGardner: Primary focus: existing community members. Secondary focus: local newbies. Tertiary focus: other stuff. ?
[13:27] brassratgirl_: a 101 track, and a bilingual track!
[13:27] jayansonvv: yes - i like that
[13:28] jayansonvv: and all of the tracks should be open to questions, open to new learners - that's how you increase the overall brain power and experience of attendees
[13:28] SueGardner: Kul: yes. I did a little paper survey that seemed to surface the same kind of hing.
[13:28] MichaelSnow: Most of the time, stuff that's over their heads will not be harmful to newbies, but it would help to have at least some things created for their benefit
[13:28] jayansonvv: explain acronyms, take some time to go over what's happening, etc
[13:28] SueGardner: It can be alienating to attend a session that is over your head
[13:28] jayansonvv: agreed
[13:28] brassratgirl_: there have been a lot of new people at all of the Wikimanias, maybe less so in Frankfurt
[13:28] brassratgirl_: and the tone of the crowd has changed with each new location (lots of academics in harvard)
[13:28] JamesF: Loads of newbies for the past two particularly.
[13:28] JamesF: Which was great, but we didn't cater enough for them.
[13:29] brassratgirl_: but there are some sessions (like JamesF's ) that are meant really for people who know WP inside & out
[13:29] jayansonvv: i think we'll get more and more 'new' folks. if we do an academy in Buenos Aires, all new folks, I expect a percentage, maybe half, will come to Wikimania
[13:29] bastique: brassratgirl_: and my OTRS session
[13:29] SueGardner: There are lots of ways to do this well: a newbie track, or labelling sessions with different recommended 'experience levels'
[13:29] brassratgirl_: perhaps just making all that clearer will help
[13:29] brassratgirl_: cary: yes
[13:29] SueGardner: yes
[13:29] jayansonvv: brilliant, yes
[13:29] SueGardner: yes!
[13:29] bastique: NOTE: Experience levels on sessions
[13:29] jayansonvv: and letting the re-visiting people know that it's good to be welcoming and open - we just say ti a lot
[13:29] jayansonvv: we encourage and support those things, they happen anyway
[13:30] SueGardner: K
[13:30] bastique: okay
[13:30] kwadhwa: I think doing an academy is a great idea. There was one session that was about making better edits and contributions to Wikipedia but it was clearly not for beginners
[13:30] SueGardner: I am happy with that: I have wanted us to have some clarity there. We can revisit it later if we need to, but I am happy with it as a provisional agreement
[13:30] jayansonvv: that's good for the media/public picture in general. We need to shed the suggestion that we are way inside and super internal. we can still be that way, yeah. but we need to show our inclusion
[13:30] Gizmo_II: we are planning on academies
[13:30] SueGardner: Gizmo_II: Excellent!
[13:30] Gizmo_II: and we have done quite a few "workshops" already
[13:30] jayansonvv: this is great - it's all good stories and the right kind of stuff to show the world. thumbs up
[13:30] bastique:
[13:31] bastique: shall we move on to Sponsorships?
[13:31] bastique: Next item is Sponsorship
[13:31] SueGardner: K
[13:31] SueGardner: Cary
[13:31] jayansonvv: i hate to eat and run
[13:31] bastique: yes
[13:31] bastique: bye Jye
[13:31] bastique: jay
[13:31] SueGardner: bey Jay!
[13:31] kwadhwa: just walk then
[13:31] SueGardner: What had we agreed last meeting re sponsorships?
[13:31] SueGardner: Kul is going to write up something?
[13:31] jayansonvv: I know kul has put lots of thought into sponsorships. all i can say is that they can sometimes be great media/story multipliers
[13:31] SueGardner: Kul, do you want to summarize?
[13:31] jayansonvv: ciao all - have a great meeting!
[13:31] kwadhwa: yes. let me do that
[13:31] SueGardner: Thanks Jay. Bye
[13:31] bastique: Yes
[13:32] kwadhwa: I have been trying to help
[13:32] zuirdj: re: academy... we are thinking to organize a pre-wikimania the previous day... we think there will be a mass interest in Argentina to attend Wikimania, and 150 places to local will not be enough.. so, many of those are newbies and would be great to do a 101 for them...
[13:32] kwadhwa: thomas from the developing brazil chapter join the chat but he's having trouble
[13:32] jayansonvv left the chat room.
[13:32] bastique: zuirdj: That's a fantastic idea.
[13:33] zuirdj: and that academy would be free.. as in free beer
[13:33] Seddon left the chat room. (Client Quit)
[13:33] kwadhwa: ok, in regards to Sponsorship, I am looking to do a two-tier track, bigger international sponsorships that the Foundation will manage and then local ones that the chapters will secure and manage with guidelines and guidance from the Foundation
[13:34] kwadhwa: I don't want to interfere at all with the tone and mission of the conference so I am going to make the expectations very clear to sponsors
[13:34] SueGardner: Kul, you are talking with the Argentinian chapter obviously about this...
[13:34] SueGardner: ?
[13:35] kwadhwa: it is a community event and it that has to be maintained
[13:35] kwadhwa: I told Patriciao already that I am working on the structure for this
[13:35] barcex: Yes, we are aware of that.
[13:35] SueGardner: barcex=Patricio?
[13:36] bastique: Barcex = Carlos
[13:36] barcex: Barcex = carlos
[13:36] SueGardner: Right! Sorry
[13:36] bastique: patricio is under the weather, I understand
[13:36] SueGardner: What do you folks think? [the chapter]
[13:36] mnemonic1 joined the chat room.
[13:36] JamesF left the chat room. ("This computer has gone to sleep")
[13:36] brassratgirl_: Kul: are you thinking about sponsors that would be potential partners from year to year?
[13:36] brassratgirl_: like Answers.com in years past
[13:37] kwadhwa: Obtaining sponsorships is all about maintaining relationship so if we have to do go through the sales cycle every year, that's a lot of work for chapters
[13:37] Seddon joined the chat room.
[13:37] barcex: SueGardner, that global/local model to deal with sponsors is what we proposed to Kul and I think we are more on less agreeing on that
[13:37] bastique: barcex, zuirdj, Gizmo_II: what do you think of Kul's idea?
[13:37] bastique: Sorry, 1 second too late
[13:38] mnemonic1 was granted voice by ChanServ.
[13:38] kwadhwa: If I am able to get some multi-year sponsors on a higher level, it's that must easier for chapters to get local or country specific sponsors on board
[13:38] SueGardner: barcex: Thanks. That's good. What Kul says makes sense to me, but I need also to know if you think it'll work for you folks.
[13:39] SueGardner: Seems to me that yes, the local organizers would have local contacts, but the international, ongoing relationships should be managed by the same people year-after-year for continuity reasons.
[13:39] kwadhwa: For example, Patricio or Carlos goes to a copy and says that Dell, or Intel or whoever is a main global sponsor of Wikimania (and the Academies), is that much easier to convince a local company to get on board
[13:39] SueGardner: Rather than forcing local groups to reinvent the wheel every year...
[13:39] kwadhwa: *company
[13:39] mnemonic1: hi, folks
[13:39] SueGardner: Kul: Yeah, makes sense. Hi Mike!
[13:40] mnemonic1: sorry to come in late, but i suspected the meeting would still be going strong when i arrived
[13:40] TSB joined the chat room.
[13:40] kwadhwa: and if the Foundation is at least somewhat involved, we will have to develop a sponsorship/media kit and share that knowledge with the chapters
[13:40] kwadhwa: it makes there job that must easier
[13:41] kwadhwa: *their job....jeez I can't type today
[13:41] bastique: TSB is Thomas from the Brazil chapter, i'm assuming
[13:41] bastique: ^potential Brazil chapter
[13:41] SueGardner: Does anyone else involved with Wikimania 09 have anything else to say re sponsorships?
[13:41] SueGardner: (I mean the local planners.)
[13:42] barcex: Yes, wee agree with that model. We will have to define all the details, of course.
[13:42] kwadhwa: and I also want to make sure the local chapters get good deals, and that's how the Foundation can help as well
[13:42] SueGardner: K thanks
[13:42] bastique: Okay, I think the next item was Jury/selection
[13:43] SueGardner: Can we step back a little re this?
[13:43] bastique: Okay
[13:43] SueGardner: We had started last meeting to have a good (I thought) conversation about the purpose of the jury.
[13:43] SueGardner: Maybe we can continue that?
[13:43] kwadhwa: barcex: the devil is in the details
[13:44] SueGardner: IIRC, I had suggested that the purpose of the jury is three-fold: 1., to do the work of helping get the bids ready, 2., to evaluate them, and 3., to provide moral legitimacy to the outcome.
[13:44] bastique: brassratgirl_, Austin, MichaelSnow were in on this
[13:44] SueGardner: Please comment!
[13:45] bastique: 1) being establishing the criteria
[13:45] SueGardner: Mmmm, I thought the jury was handed the criteria, rather than determining it. No?
[13:45] bastique: Okay
[13:45] MichaelSnow: Well, that's where the possibility of a two-stage jury came up
[13:46] brassratgirl_: re: sponsorships for one tiny bit -- part of the painful part of getting sponsorships in past has just been logistics -- getting logos, contact people, invitations to the right people, etc. etc.
[13:46] MichaelSnow: If "helping bids get ready" means developing some kind of template for them, that may be fine
[13:46] SueGardner: MichaelSnow: yes.
[13:47] MichaelSnow: Having to prod and hold hands through the process is a little more work than the jury is capable of, though
[13:47] SueGardner: MichaelSnow: yes, I agree.
[13:47] SueGardner: Who _should_ do that prep work?
[13:47] brassratgirl_: MichaelSnow: nor do we want to
[13:47] SueGardner: LOL
[13:47] kwadhwa: brassratgirl_: and I want to create a turn-key solution for that. I am going to create guidelines and resources for that
[13:47] MichaelSnow: To a large extent, the bid teams have to be self-motivated, that's key to showing they have the capability for the conference
[13:48] brassratgirl_: Kul: I"m just thinking that having someone -- you or a local person or whoever -- who can coordinate all that between the local sponsorships and the international ones would be fantastic
[13:48] brassratgirl_: SueGardner: no one's done it in the past
[13:48] SueGardner: MichaelSnow: agreed. But I think additionally there is a piece of work which involves answering their questions, providing templates, validating the information they provide 9to a degree, within reason), etc.
[13:48] bastique: Okay, we've got two discussions going on here
[13:48] brassratgirl_: I think the validating part could maybe be picked up by part of the community
[13:48] bastique: Can we stick with the jury process for now?
[13:49] brassratgirl_: bastique: I'm done
[13:49] bastique: okay
[13:49] brassratgirl_: i.e. invite everyone who wants to help out to help out
[13:49] brassratgirl_: templates should basically be the criteria
[13:49] kwadhwa: brassratgirl_: honestly, I will have to give that more thought. We don't have a lot of resources to have someone manage that so that work may have to fall to the local chapter
[13:49] brassratgirl_: which should specify what we want
[13:49] brassratgirl_: but not so much that it stifles new ideas
[13:49] SueGardner: I think if we had a good solid template, that would make the jury's 'evaluation' role much easier.
[13:50] brassratgirl_: there is nothing that says we can't have a whole new set of ideas for wikimania seeing as we have made it up from scratch so far
[13:50] brassratgirl_: yes
[13:50] brassratgirl_: criteria and how to evaluate on those criteria: two halves of the same thing
[13:50] SueGardner: So upshot: I think that if did a chunk of work creating a template, the jury's life would be much easier.
[13:50] brassratgirl_: what do you mean by a template?
[13:50] • delphine_away tries to speak
[13:51] delphine_away is now known as delphine.
[13:51] SueGardner: [go ahead delphine]
[13:51] delphine: lol I was just making sure I had voice
[13:51] SueGardner: K
[13:51] MichaelSnow: There is already a http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:Wikimania_bid
[13:51] brassratgirl_: besides, say, this: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2010/Bids/Amsterdam where they are filling in the parts slowly
[13:51] brassratgirl_: or, right, the actual template
[13:51] delphine: and yes, I agree we need a template. We have a pretty good frame already
[13:51] delphine: but the most important is, we need to make it even more closely knit
[13:52] MichaelSnow: delphine: Yes, it needs to be tightened up
[13:52] delphine: so the bidding teams can't interpret the answers.
[13:52] SueGardner: Hm. I am getting a little lost in labels But what I mean is, it was difficult for me to compare bids last time, because they interpreted the framework quite differently, each of them.
[13:52] SueGardner: They each answered the questions in their own way, which meant we were comparing apples to oranges. So I think a slightly more restrictive framework would help the jury.
[13:53] SueGardner: Us
[13:53] SueGardner: oopos
[13:53] delphine: exactly.
[13:53] SueGardner: I mean, uh, shall I volunteer to take a crack at proposing a tightened template?
[13:53] brassratgirl_: what aspects do you think should be tightened?
[13:53] • delphine volunteers Sue.
[13:53] delphine: haha
[13:53] SueGardner: I know!
[13:53] MichaelSnow: SueGardner: If you have to ask, then you volunteered
[13:53] SueGardner: LOLOLOL.
[13:53] SueGardner: I am an idiot. But yes, fine
[13:54] SueGardner: I'm gonna shut up now
[13:54] delphine: and we should have a pretty tight budget frame as well. I can send you my frame and you can adapt with the stuff you want to know.
[13:54] SueGardner: K
[13:56] bastique: Sue messing with template code?
[13:56] • bastique notes that Erik is suddenly standing behind Sue
[13:56] • bastique hides
[13:56] SueGardner: Carry on
[13:57] kwadhwa: I have another meeting in 3 minutes so I'm outta here. Any other questions, can u email me?
[13:57] delphine: ok, I just was passing by (too late for me). Do you need me for anything?
[13:57] mnemonic1 left the chat room. (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[13:57] kwadhwa: carlos: tell Patricio to follow up with me next week
[13:57] barcex: yes kwadhwa
[13:58] SueGardner: Bye Kul, bye Delphine.
[13:58] mnemonic1 joined the chat room.
[13:58] kwadhwa: gracias/obrigado....adios/tchau
[13:58] barcex: I suggest a questionnaire model such the one that the Olympic Committee asks the candidate cities to fill (of course, a scaled down version)
[13:58] • delphine will read the whole thing later.
[13:58] SueGardner: Barcex: do you have access to such a thing?
[13:58] barcex: Yes SueGardner
[13:58] SueGardner: Can you mail it to me, or a URL?
[13:58] bastique: Wow
[13:59] SueGardner: (or to us all, better still)
[13:59] • bastique will have to send Barcex the email address list
[13:59] barcex: Let me find one, all are public. It's a set of fixed questions that all bidders have to answer.
[13:59] SueGardner: Lovely, thanks.
[13:59] kwadhwa left the chat room.
[14:00] SueGardner: Also: brassratgirl, I'm sorry but I can't remember how we ran the bidding process last time - was there a Google spreadsheet or something?
[14:00] bastique: Yep
[14:00] SueGardner: For the criteria, I mean.
[14:00] bastique: Oh, nothing that formal
[14:01] MichaelSnow: I remember there being a spreadsheet for the voting, but I think I had trouble accessing it
[14:01] bastique: I mean... bids earned points for each criteria
[14:01] bastique: I still have access to it
[14:01] SueGardner: I just found it: thank you.
[14:02] SueGardner: K. So I will take a crack at proposing a small rejig of the bidding process / bid evaluation process.
[14:02] SueGardner: With the goal of making bids more easily comparable by jury members.
[14:02] brassratgirl_: bastique: there was a spreadsheet
[14:02] barcex: http://www.madrid2016.es/es/noticias/informesestudios/Documents/Cuestionario_Questionnaire.pdf
[14:02] bastique: brassratgirl_: Sue found it
[14:02] brassratgirl_: versus previous models of all discussion, or, hmm, some other method of adding up points I can't remember at the moment
[14:02] brassratgirl_: Austin?
[14:03] You left the chat by being disconnected from the server.
[14:03] You rejoined the room.
[14:03] bastique: ouch
[14:04] bastique: barcex: That's pretty big
[14:04] bastique: That's an application
[14:05] brassratgirl_: hmm, that Madrid bid doesn't look so different from our Wikimania categories
[14:05] brassratgirl_: next time, we shall try for the olympics
[14:05] barcex:
[14:05] SueGardner:
[14:05] brassratgirl_: the wikiolympics
[14:06] bastique: This is a good starting point?
[14:06] MichaelSnow: And the gold medal in Recent Changes Patrol goes to...
[14:06] SueGardner: Don't laugh - Frank has a well-developed notion about this!
[14:06] SueGardner: He has a plan!
[14:06] bastique: yes, I was about to restate
[14:06] MichaelSnow: It's not that different from trap shooting, and that's an Olympic sport
[14:06] brassratgirl_: with a special Trolling competition
[14:06] SueGardner: hee
[14:06] brassratgirl_: with a jury of arbitrators
[14:07] bastique: So, this is a good outline? Sue volunteered for making the template, I presume?
[14:07] MichaelSnow: Oh, no, it'll be like ice skating judges
[14:07] brassratgirl_: "7.5"!
[14:07] bastique: Who is formalizing the criteria?
[14:07] SueGardner: LOL, stop! Do we have other business to do here, or are we just messing around now?
[14:08] bastique: That's what I'm trying to find out
[14:08] delphine is now known as delphine_away.
[14:08] bastique: I don't think we decided completely about Jury makeup either
[14:08] brassratgirl_: That was srs business. But I'm not sure we can talk more about how to run the jury with so few peoople
[14:08] brassratgirl_: perhaps on email?
[14:08] brassratgirl_: tightening down the criteria sounds good
[14:08] brassratgirl_: and considering whether there is anything to add
[14:08] bastique: Yes, but who should be responsible!
[14:09] brassratgirl_: (and also recognizing that sometimes getting perfect answers is tough for a local team, but they can pull it off anyway)
[14:09] SueGardner: Can I recap on one quick jury question though?
[14:09] bastique: please, Sue
[14:09] SueGardner: IIRC, Austin was proposing an open community vote.
[14:09] SueGardner: (It was Austin, right?)
[14:09] barcex: I think it was Damian Finol
[14:09] bastique: Yes
[14:09] SueGardner: Right, sorry. Yes, it was Damian.
[14:09] MichaelSnow: It doesn't sound like Austin, but it did come up, I believe
[14:09] bastique: I think it's nice in theory
[14:10] bastique: on paper... but I seriously worry about application
[14:10] SueGardner: And there were also questions about the legitimacy of the jury. Phoebe had gotten questions from people; JamesF reminded us that there had been a good jury selection process.
[14:10] SueGardner: Yeah?
[14:10] bastique: Delphine and I have usually come up with the jury
[14:10] SueGardner: So there were some basic questions about how the jury should be handled in future - should there be one, its membership, etc.
[14:11] bastique: And whether it should include people who had not previously attended the conference
[14:11] MichaelSnow: Yes, and there wasn't clear agreement about whether the jury should include people who've never attended Wikimania (among other issues)
[14:12] brassratgirl_: right. (this is where sj's notes would come in handy)
[14:12] SueGardner: So I think we should kick around all that on our mailing list.
[14:12] SueGardner: But ultimately, I am not sure who will make a decision.
[14:12] SueGardner: Particularly on the question of "should there be a jury or an open community vote" - which is a pretty big question..
[14:13] SueGardner: Do we simply default to the status quo, if there's no consensus or clear leaning otherwise....?
[14:14] delphine_away: (there should be a jury - but I'm not here, really)
[14:14] bastique: My feeling is that a community vote is going to be over-represented by A) People in the US
[14:14] brassratgirl_: lol
[14:14] bastique: People in English countries
[14:14] brassratgirl_: we cancel wikimania, of course.
[14:14] bastique: C) People in the West
[14:14] brassratgirl_: I think there should be a jury, and we can default to that; but there are just questions about how to make it better.
[14:14] bastique: with an emphasis on Germany
[14:15] bastique: way too many Germans
[14:16] SueGardner: Feels to me like most people here are just lurking, LOL
[14:16] bastique: and delphine and I can still come up with them? I don't think that was a major issue in the past.
[14:16] SueGardner: [crickets and all]
[14:16] barcex:
[14:16] bastique: I mean, we strive to represent all nations and time zones
[14:16] SueGardner: Okay!
[14:17] • MichaelSnow chirps
[14:17] bastique: the question about non-prior attendees is all I want addressed
[14:17] bastique: poke
[14:17] bastique: hello?
[14:17] You were granted voice by ChanServ.
[14:17] bastique: I've been talking to myself
[14:17] SueGardner: Cary just told me he has no voice!
[14:18] bastique: wow
[14:18] barcex: I also like to have a jury instead of a community voting. If we choose community voting we well host Wikimania always in Rio
[14:18] barcex: *will
[14:18] bastique: Okay
[14:18] bastique: Delphine and I usually came up with the jury in the past
[14:18] bastique: And we've always strived to represent all nations and timezones
[14:18] MichaelSnow: I assume a jury of some kind is necessary to facilitate the process, even if there is a voting phase tacked on
[14:19] bastique: I don't think there was a big issue with the Jury makeup
[14:19] MichaelSnow: and I'm not terribly enthusiastic about voting
[14:19] bastique: although I've heard it's been overrepresented by board, staff, non-enwikipedians, etc.
[14:19] bastique: but no single complaint
[14:20] SueGardner: Okay. so maybe we rejig its makeup a tiny bit.
[14:20] MichaelSnow: bastique: It all boils down to being a closed, insular, self-perpetuating system, in a way
[14:20] bastique: MichaelSnow: Yes! That's why
[14:20] bastique: I wanted to bring this up. And the reason why I thought that non-attendees might make a slight bit of difference
[14:21] mnemonic1 was granted voice by ChanServ.
[14:22] bastique: like marrying outside the tribe to keep genetic abnormalities down
[14:22] bastique: whatever that's called
[14:22] bastique: and I know that a number of jury members from last year want to drop out
[14:23] bastique: poke
[14:23] MichaelSnow: I think it's a good idea, but some others didn't as much
[14:24] MichaelSnow: Hopefully if the bulk of the jury has previous experience, that will be enough
[14:24] brassratgirl_: are you poking me, bastique?
[14:24] brassratgirl_: *ahem*
[14:24] bastique: Austin's concern was that he didn't feel like non-attendees had conference experience
[14:24] brassratgirl_: I like the idea of having some former organizers
[14:24] bastique: brassratgirl_ no, def
[14:24] bastique: but not entirely
[14:24] brassratgirl_: right
[14:24] SueGardner: (K, I need to run, folks - I have a call in a few minutes. Cary, would you mind sending out a quick recap later? And bye all!)
[14:24] bastique: Okay, I'll do my best
[14:24] SueGardner: Thanks everyone!
[14:25] SueGardner left the chat room. ("Leaving")
[14:25] bastique: Is everyone okay with Delphine and I coming up with a new Jury (with everyone's input)
[14:25] MichaelSnow: It's okay with me
[14:26] bastique: from Seddon:
[14:26] bastique: i had an idea of a rolling jury, 2 teams of jurors active for 2 years and changed alternate years; means there are always experianced jurors
[14:27] MichaelSnow: Interesting. I'm not sure how many people want to commit more than one cycle at a time, though
[14:27] bastique: I know. and sometimes the reason people come off is because they just go away
[14:29] bastique: but that's certainly an idea to kick around
[14:29] bastique: anything else or shall we wrap things up?
[14:29] MichaelSnow: Wrap up and do anything else by email, I think
[14:29] bastique: I'll give the rest of you 3 minutes
[14:31] bastique: okay!
[14:31] bastique: We're done!
